Israel is the ONLY democracy in the Middle East, and the only country in that region in which I would enjoy living.
Whatever kudos I handed President Obama from his decision making in the OBL/UBL strike have faded in my memory. I am once again disappointed by Mr. MTVPresident.
Israel has been a tremendous friend to the U.S. The U.S. needs Israel, and Israel needs to know that we stand with her. Peace must be made, and that cannot happen until Israel's enemies, and they are legion, acknowledge Israel's right to exist.
The people of Israel deserve the support of the West. It was the West that failed these people in their time of peril and it is the West that must endorse AND SUPPORT the legitimate right of the Jewish state to exist in peace. I would ask liberal Jews here in the U.S. to step up and press this administration to do the right thing... he's your guy and these are your people. To my conservative, libertarian and orthodox friends - Now is the time to let the administration and your members of Congress/Senate know that we are watching and that we support the Israeli people.
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44 comments:
If you were an Arab living in Israel you would not say that.what a joke!
Israel is a settler state,not a democracy.
Heh at least the arab living in Israel can say something. They have it better than the Christians (Who lived in the ME before Islam was even thought up) living in the other parts of the Middle East. Ya know the ones being beheaded and attacked daily as their churches are burned.
Palestine is a fantasy land thought up by Multi-Cult progressives so they can sanction and scream for yet another genocide. I guess it makes them feel good or something as long as the deed is done to others and out of their sight.
My bet is we will see a move like Greg mentioned some months ago and the Golfer in Chief tries to figure a way to get US troops into the region to help close the siege on Israel. 2012 cannot come soon enough.
How do you reconcile your desire to support regimes around the world but not be the world police fore and not have our troops all over the world?
Without our Navy dominating the seas over there and our air bases and forward deployed troops and material how do you suppose we could aid Israel if it ever came down to it.
Israel and a whole bunch of other friends are going to need to learn to fend for themselves.
Turkey is pretty good.
Iraq is a democracy too.
Turkey. I don't define Turkey as the M.E., although they have a respectable semblance of democracy. Iraq? They do not exist as a functioning state at this moment.
YTF is it that so many people (on the Left) oppose Israel? I just don't get it.
Leave it to PioneerRacist (I'm waiting for Dexturd's usual trenchant observations as well) to support the Zionists using the same old tired conservaturd arguments. Greg, for a guy who likes to pretend to be a free-thinker it's amazing the company you keep on here.
Sweet everytime the R word is thrown out it gets that much weaker.
I wear that mantle proudly so keep em coming.
PioneerRacist and DexTurd! Did you think that up yourself anon? Carful you don’t blow a mental gasket and hurt yourself. Seriously, how about a coherent argument instead of ad hominem attacks? And what pray tell is wrong with Zionism? Why shouldn’t the Jews have a homeland? If you have a conheriant plan or even a good argument I’m all ears.
Best,
Dan
Hard to see Israel as a democracy when most of the Palestinians living there don't have the vote.
Hard to see it as worthy of support when it has breached international laws by stealing land, oppressed almost 50% of their own citizens, and actively promoted illegal settlements on other people's land.
Hard to take it as a democratic state in any meaningful sense when it routinely invades, occupies and murders the citizens of its neighbours.
Israel learnt many lessons from Jewish persecution under communist Russia and Fascist Germany - mostly the wrong ones.
I'd say Israel is better defined as an aggressively fascist state implementing active racism. I just wish the US would stop supporting Israel as well as all the M.E. dictatorships and south American right wing juntas. Be great if you guys would be on the side of genuine, unambiguous freedom, democracy and civil rights once in a while.
Invasion? Funny I haven't read any articles about Israeli missiles landing in Egypt or Jordan on a daily basis killing civilians. Face it Israel tries to let nationless refugees have these areas and these Islamic terrorist continue to peck at them like a flock of ducks until Israel is forced to strike back. In which case they take a bit more. Sometimes. Then the cycle repeats itself by using Iranian money for the various Islamic groups to rebuild and do it all over again, the PLO becomes Hammas etc.
Murder? As in random thugs being regarded as heroes for slitting a young child's throat? That kind of murder?
Maybe you should try keeping your nose out of others business instead of trying to whip up some kind of biased hatred from a thousand miles away. The fact is neither you nor I have a right to call down the military wrath of the world on any group until you know and completely understand both sides of the issue and the history behind it.
Fights are won in the will and it seems there has been alot of will behind the Israeli's for the last 60 some odd years.
When I read that you condemn Egyptian Muslims for burning churches and violating Christian rights and you call for a Coptic homeland then maybe I will see your opinion as unbiased. When you use your self righteous indignation over civil rights to question the lack of any religious structure being built in Iran, other than Muslim, then you can scream about the Israelis.
Until then Hypocrite is all I can see in your words.
Donal,
Moslems that fled Israel in 1948 do not have the vote in Israel, however the ones that did not flee and their descendants do. How does this make it undemocratic?
Stealing of land? Obviously this is a problem because Israel is the only state to have its borders defined by war and no other state holds land by right of conquest.
Democracies are arguably more inclined to war than any of the other forms of political organization and have initiated a disproportionate share of the wars since 1945. Your assumptions are throwing you off here.
If Israel learned all the wrong lessons from past persecutions why don’t their minority populations flee?
Please define fascist and racist.
Best,
Dan
PP Glad to hear you're not biased!
BTW you seem to confuse Israel with Christian - last I heard they were old testament Jews and don't like being considered Christians. In fact, last I heard all good Christians blamed the Jews for killing off their saviour! But hey, we all hate the A-rabs, huh?
Dan; try this (and try reading it thoroughly and checking its sources, not just condemning it as crap)
http://www.israeli-occupation.org/2011-05-21/rona-sela-it-took-a-village/
Seems like none of you were snatched, so maybe none of us are without sin! ;-)
Bureocrat returns as anon.
Make that "Bureaucrat".
How's the Fedgov motorpool working out for you, Bur? Got plenty of porn viewing time?
Marshall
No Donal I am not mistaking Jews for Christians. I am pointing out that the Muslims, just like many other so called Minority groups around the world, scream about so called "rights" violations while celebrating even worse violations by their brethren and even by themselves.
Then we have the self important Western enabling whites that ignore all their pet groups violations and violence just to condemn others in a desperate attempt to feel superior.
I can admit my biases and I am more than comfortable that they do not call for harm against others just to relieve some guilt. You should try it.
Oh and I briefly thought anon was Bur but if it is he is using his crybaby persona as Bur's main avatar was a little more refined and polite than the anon one.
I wonder how many people lambasting the Jews on minority rights ever reflect on the fact that the very ideal of minority rights is a Jewish institution. The ideal that you are prohibited from not just murdering your neighbor, but also the guy from another tribe on the next hill or his neighbors is a Jewish ideal that started there and nowhere else, then moved outward from there as a civilizing force. Civilization has many cornerstones and prerequisites that no one ever seems to reflect on, though perhaps we should.
Best,
Dan
Dan; are you seriously suggesting that morals started with the Jews???
read the old testament and you'll find a morality somewhat below that of the Greek gods, and a justice system more arbitrary and cruel than Sharia! (and on which Sharia is based).
The Vedic religions (such as Hinduism) were far more sophisticated and their written form dates from around 1500bc (although probably much older in verbal transmission), so much the same as old testament.
Personally I'd prefer Taoism - far more enlightened even pre-christian.
Regarding you previous Q's;
Fascist, here's Wikipedia's definition;
...'is a radical, authoritarian nationalist political ideology. Fascists advocate the creation of a totalitarian single-party state that seeks the mass mobilization of a nation through indoctrination, physical education, and family policy including eugenics'.
It goes on to talk about; 'Fascists exalt militarism ... instilling of a will to dominate in people's character, and creating national comradeship through military service'. Note the eugenics!
I'd also propose that Israeli politics is so narrowly defined that those in power from administration to administration are effectively a single-party state controlled by religous fundamentalists.
Racist because Jews are an ethno-religous grouping who define themselves as a separate race and impose different laws on those who do not belong.
Whew! Some strong feelings here...
I hope that those less than "pro-Israel" will keep in mind the state of the world's affairs at the time of the Israeli uprising/revolution:
Their fellow man had just tried to kill all of them.
Think about that for a minute.
I reject violence in all its forms abortion, military killing, capital punishment, murder.... but if I catch some guy in my kid's hallway at 3 am, only 1 of us is coming out alive.
The Jews living in that region at that time took what action they thought necessary for their very existence - rightly or wrongly is not the issue here. Israel exists. The U.S. has recognized her as have ALL of the governments of Europe.
"Invasion? Funny I haven't read any articles about Israeli missiles landing in Egypt or Jordan on a daily basis killing civilians. Face it Israel tries to let nationless refugees have these areas and these Islamic terrorist continue to peck at them like a flock of ducks until Israel is forced to strike back. In which case they take a bit more. Sometimes. Then the cycle repeats itself by using Iranian money for the various Islamic groups to rebuild and do it all over again, the PLO becomes Hammas etc."
Like it or not, that is a fair assessment.
Can Israel survive in the post Oil world of 100 years from now? Can KSA? What about the U.S.A.? Who freaking knows?
The central point I brought up was this:
Israel exists, and is recognized. They have been a good friend to the U.S., and the U.S. has been one in return. They treat their people, Jews, Muslims, and Christians in accordance with the generally accepted principals of Western democracies. They do not engage in unprovoked hostile actions (that does not mean that I support EVERY REACTION their government engages in any more than I support the U.S. action all in every circumstance). Lastly, the U.S. simply must remember who its friends really are.
Is Israel a perfect situation? Probably not. But you have to take into consideration the experience of these people in Europe and Russia during the 20th century. Given that the idea of a Jewish state is a very logical outcome that I support without reservation. When you add how the fact that Israel has developed into a non-hostile (you are allowed to defend yourself) democracy that has aligned strongly with America my enthusiasm increases.
Why Liberal Jews in America don't see it that way is f***ing beyond me. I beg members of that demographic to reconsider.
What many people don't realize is that there is an organized media effort to portray the Palestinians as an oppressed minority being harassed by the Israeli Jews,largely started by the rich Arab states which are highly anti Semitic. If you are a Jew you are not allowed to even enter the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. If you believe what the Jews believe then this negates everything the Muslems believe,and they know this and hate the Jews for it. Every American president since Israel came into existence has tried to be the one to bring peace to the Middle East, Obama is as deluded as Bill Clinton was on this issue. According to the true Jewish belief system, the Muslims are nothing but a bunch of deluded pagans. So don't expect peace in the Middle east anytime soon.
Jeffers media theory comes into play here, perhaps more persuasively than in any other arena.
THe despotic regimes of the Muslim world NEED someone for their people to hate. That someone is Israel and the U.S., with Israel more the more prominent.
And look, I am not going to be able to touch upon all of the nuances of this... I am reaching out to Israel's supporters here in the U.S. to speak up.
Donal,
What do you suppose we do, force the Jews out of their land so a bunch of migrant Arabs can take possession? You are more than ridiculous on this subject. Jeffers correctly points out that the race was on the verge of extinction because of the policies of fascist German and communist Russian governments. This leaves out the fact that for 50 prior to statehood the Jews had been slowing migrating back to Israel and rebuilding what could only be called a desolate area. There were no nation states under the Ottoman Empire and with its fall in the 20’s the Mideast was completely discombobulated.
Israel does have suffrage for all groups by the way. The Jews make up around 75% of the population and the Palestinians within the Israel border do vote. The ones in the semi-autonomous zones have their own governments.
You said “Hard to take it as a democratic state in any meaningful sense when it routinely invades, occupies and murders the citizens of its neighbors.” You are plainly just a biased individual. So nations don’t have a right to protect their own people? I mean why should they be able to respond when Palestinians shoot anti-tank weapons into schools buses and kill children right? Have you actually looked into the facts surrounding Israel statehood and come to these conclusions? Is it truly lost on you that a little nation surrounded by hundreds of millions of Muslims that want to destroy it should not respond to military provocations from Hezbollah, Hamas, etc? You must live in fantasy land; they actually have to live in that nation without fanciful delusions of western liberals! The Muslim states use these terror groups as proxies for because when they stand up against that little lion they get taken to the wood shed.
Dextred
The Muslims are out breeding the Israelis...end of story. It is just a matter of time.
The irony is that most of the Palestinians are Jews whose ancestors converted to Christianity or Islam at some point within the past 2000 years...so it's a family feud, the worst possible kind.
Confining a hostile population in concentration camps (the West bank and Gaza) has never worked out so
well from the time the Brits first tried it in SA in the Boer War.
And as an aside, I'm tired of all the BS from the children of Abraham (Jews,Christians and Moslems). I wish they had all been raptured up on May 21 and leave the rest of us the fuck alone.
Donal,
How does a Socialist speak of "genuine, unambiguous freedom, democracy and civil rights?" How does that exist with government that desires to invade and control all facets of life? Based on today's left's rantings, the only true right is the right to screw whomever you want whenever you want.
Economic rights, property rights, freedom of association, freedom of speech and religion, privacy etc. seem to be rather unimportant to the left. Sex is being used as a distraction while all other liberty is destroyed. Aldous Huxley seems to have struck the nail on the head.
This is not to say that those on the right are no less inclined to abrogate civil rights. I just cannot understand how ever-growing, more intrusive government can be promotive of increased freedom.
Regards,
Coal Guy
Coal Guy,
Don't forget the freedom to murder your own child in the womb. That is a really important one for them also. I suppose that goes along with the sexual freedom though.
Dextred
Dex,
I wasn't clear on that, sorry! I meant the right to screw whomever you want whenever you want, and have someone else accept responsibility for the consequences.
Regards,
Coal Guy
Coal guy,
I knew what you were saying and completely agree with your always astute observations.
Jeffers,
Do you have a tractor yet? I did not notice in any of your pics over the last couple yrs.
In general,
Has anyone noticed the coyote's have gotten much bigger? I have a couple buddies that kill them for farmers telling me they must be breeding with dogs because they are finding males around 70 pounds. Does anyone have problems with them on their homesteads? I was wondering if this is a growing problem or not.
Dex
Dex,
You gave me the opportunity to restate my point more clearly. Thanks!
I saw a 60lb or more coyote walking through city streets in Newport RI. They are rampant here in southeastern MA / RI. Trapping was outlawed. I suppose a small child will be mauled at some point and the decision will be rethought.
Regards,
Coal Guy
Dex
I read somewhere not too long ago that a coyote/dog mix will always have a white tipped tail. Not sure if that is true nor can I remember where exactly I saw that but I do know that I have also read dogs that go feral will return to a brown coat and white tipped tail within 2 generations. Never tested or seen either so I can't say.
PP,
That is some very interesting info. I will look into that. Thanks.
Dextred
Dex
Well I tried to find the article I read and I know it was about feral dog attacks and went on to talk about numbers of feral dogs in LA and NY. Anyway I had zero luck and I cannot find any source to back up the white tail tip claim either so it may all be BS. In fact the sources I found online seem to claim otherwise so I don't know.
It sounded good though maybe that's why it stuck in my head :)
Ok Hy-jacking the thread I guess but I did find this:
For proof of the latter, go to inner-city Philadelphia, and, if you are lucky enough to see a wild dog before you get mugged, you will observe that, unless the dog is a first or second generation stray, they all have common features: all are about 35-40 pounds; have short hair; tails curling over their backs; pointed muzzles and erect but bent-tipped ears, a modest stop and eyes in the front of their face rather than to the sides. Travel the world and you will find wild dogs generally follow this pattern no matter where they are. This is Mother Nature at work, returning dogs to the form she intended.
This is almost word for word the description I remember reading before except for the addition of the white tail tip on the curled tail. It also fits that I remember it mentioning that this happened within two generations of becoming feral.
I found that entry on a dog forum of all places so again dubious scientific fact at best.
Donal,
I am saying that the ideal that the law was universal and applied to everyone started with the Jews. I think that there were prior instances where the proscriptions of the law applied outside of the tribe but not the protection of the law. For instance, it is a capital offence to kill slaves under mosaic law but only a fine under the Hammurabi code. I wouldn’t go so far as to call that the beginning of morals, though it is very important.
Also, I never said it was kind and gentle, or that it would appeal to modern liberal sensibilities. On the other hand it wasn’t arbitrary so, you knew exactly what was proscribed and what the punishment was; in other words everyone knew exactly where they stood-which wouldn’t appeal to modern liberal sensibilities either.
Best,
Dan
Donal,
Also, if not Judea, where would you have the Jews fleeing Londanistan and the rest of an increasingly islamized Europe go?
Best,
Dan
Well, I seem to be lots of thing; from socialist to hypocrite! Not to mention an Arab supporter! maybe I'm Islamic too?!!!
In case you missed the point here, my comments were a response to Greg's support of a supposedly democratic Israel. If he'd supported a supposedly democratic Iraq, or Saudi as a 'good friend of the USA', i'd have been equally vociferous in pointing out what I see as the flaws in his proposition.
Personally I'd more-or-less agree with Greg's view of anti-aggression. I'd also combine a couple of statements to say that the US has supported Israel partly to divert anger from US (and British) companies actions claiming ME oil, which has worked very well for half a century.
But I'd also take the long view; history tells us that if you forcibly take land from someone else (however few those people may be) then try to suppress your neighbours, then 50 years on you're going to be battling their children and grandchildren.
And into the future, an increasingly wealthy ME with a vibrant, young population (with or without some form of democracy) surrounding a fearful and well-armed Israel, as US support wanes (due to a rapidly declining US role in the world) is a dangerous combination. Now its 'friend' Egypt has fallen (already opening the border to Palestinian Gaza) and Saudi is likely to eventually go the same way. Israel is fast losing local support. Obama is recognising recognising reality. The palestinians deserve the same support of any nation who wants genuine self-determination, inviolable borders and human rights. Hamas are a product of anger and fear, but would eventually disappear if Israel backed off.
Those realities must be obvious to all concerned, including an intractible Israeli government, so now would be a very good time to make peace with its neighbours. Another couple of years could be too late.
I'll stand with Israel because the Jews have always punched far above their weight in innovation and creativity, unlike the Muslims. To lose Israel would not be good for the world.
As far as history goes, I'm glad to know why the United States still is dealing with hordes of Amerindian terrorists after taking their land. Oh wait...
Finally, as far as this goes, "The palestinians deserve the same support of any nation who wants genuine self-determination, inviolable borders and human rights. Hamas are a product of anger and fear, but would eventually disappear if Israel backed off.", I see absolutely no foundation other than wishful thinking. When Israel has backed off, Hamas/PLO has increased their attacks, and vice versa.
Tweell; Amerindians were all but wiped out by your ancestors 150 years ago. Is that the model you're proposing for Israel and the Palestinians?
As for Israel backing off, when was that? I must have missed that bit.
It seems obvious to me that the current path (on both sides) is leading nowhere good. If you keep doing what you've always done.....
"if you forcibly take land from someone else (however few those people may be)" Your words, not mine. I'm simply pointing out how incorrect they are.
Israel hasn't been the ones to attempt genocide, UNLIKE their Arab neighbors.
You seem to miss a lot, Donal. Or perhaps it is your mind filter. To make it more simple: Whenever Israel gives up land that it took in time of war (war that Israel did not start, I would note), they suffer more attacks than before. The Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip that were given back did nothing to appease the Palestinians, instead it encouraged them. Disagree? Prove me wrong!
The world is an imperfect place, and there is no perfect solution here... still even non-Israel supporters must admit that the problems facing Jews the world over have certainly lessened since the founding of Israel.
Anon:
Yes, it is a family feud... the worst kind, as you say.
Dex:
The Left is destroying itself with its asinine position on abortion.
In the final analysis...
I see NO PEOPLE as special. I do see ALL PEOPLE as sacred.
These groups need to be separated. The format for that plan cannot be held by the groups firing rockets at civilians.
I don’t see rewarding the Palestinians with a contiguous state for their terror offensives as our buffoon in chief proposed. They are unfit to rule themselves and I think the best way to deal with them would be to give them to another Arab state, and of course give the Arab state something to induce them to take them. Egypt is has to import half its food and is running out. It has about a months supply of rice, three months or so of wheat and not much foreign reserves to buy more. Perhaps we could get the Europeans to give them some wheat to entice then to take the Palestinians. Sort of a food and bums policy; just tell them each Palestinian comes with two man-years of wheat and that will take care of the Gaza strip. Wonder how the Jordanians are doing???
Best,
Dan
I don't know about that one. Israel has repeatedly tried to give the Palestinians to Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, but they don't want them. The Arabs want their dispossessed kin to stay that way. That's from a Palestinian expat family I know. Good people, had real trouble when they did their pilgrimage to Mecca last year. They got kicked out of their hotel and put on the street - can't have Palestinians staying in a decent place, you see.
Good god, look at the responses to this one.
I have an idea. Lets let the two sides kill each other off. Both sides are monsters and the rest of the world would be better off if they ceased to exist.
As far as I am concerned they are both getting exactly what they deserve.
If death, destruction, and repression is what they want then they shall have it. We do we care? One side murders civilians. The other side murders civilians too.
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